An Interview With Eric Bogle
Eric Bogle was born in Peebles Scotland and migrated to Australia in 1969, working, initially as an accountant. He gradually established himself as a prominent songwriter in the folk genre, becoming a full time songwriter/musician in 1980. His song And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda became a mainstream classic, recorded by artists as diverse as the Pogues and June Tabor (as well as by Eric himself). Three of Eric's songs (recorded by other artists) have become Number One hits in Ireland.
In 1989 SCALA President Robert Childs conducted an extensive and expansive interview with Eric. The interview spanned 3 hours and was serialised over 4 issues of SCALA NEWS in 1989/90 - one of Eric's longest and most indepth interviews in which he talked about how he became a songwriter, recording, touring, audiences and, of course, songwriting. In this brief extract Eric talks about his early days and makes some comments on songwriting and the processes that work for him. Early LifeI've always written poems. I'm a poet who puts poems to music rather than writes songs specifically. I've written poetry since I was about eight years old - I don't know why. I just found a facility to rhyme things, which is an easy facility, it s not something that's a great gift. I've mainly gone in for rhyming poetry, although I've written a lot more prose in latter years. My life has been concerned with music and I come from a country and a generation and a society where music played quite an important part in our lives. It wasn't just the social lubricant that it is these days.When we were kids in school, the games we played were always accompanied by music. So the music was an integral part of the games we played in the school yard. The music reflected what has been a fairly dominated culture, the economic casualty that Scotland has been for the last two thousand years. In Scottish music it was quite important to retain a sense of national identity within the 'British Empire', so there was always lots of Scottish music sung around the place. In my own personal household, my father was a bagpiper and all his drunken mates played mouth organs, accordions, and so on. There was always music. Later , I was in a rock group and a skiffle group. I enjoyed singing but I was never much of a singer. I always enjoyed it but never saw myself as anything more than that. I wrote a couple songs in Scotland before I came to Australia in 1969 but that was all. The main reason I didn't write songs rather than poems was because I couldn't (then) play a musical instrument and if you don't play a musical instrument, it's rather hard to get melodies going. So, the two songs I wrote prior to coming to Australia were based on traditional folk tunes. The tunes were just borrowed straight off, which is quite a legitimate practice. I always advise songwriters, if they're incapable of musically doing their own tunes, to base them on old tunes. When I came to Australia in 1969 I found the local folk scene. There was a concert in Canberra. The line- up was Danny Spooner , Colin Campbell (a lot of people won't remember Colin, but I assure you that he was something special), Colin Dryden (and he was at the height of his power), Declan Affley, the Canberra Shanty Singers, and a few other assorted people. I'd never heard anything better even in Scotland. And my ideas about becoming the premier traditional singer in Australia went out the window that night after hearing that lot. I thought this was great stuff! It was interesting, that apart from Colin Campbell, who sang most of his own stuff, they were all singing Irish, British, English and Scottish traditional songs; very little Australian stuff. I joined the folk club, even though I was disheartened and I sang there a few times; Scottish music mainly, and a couple of Mac McGuiness songs. I'd written a couple of poems about Australia. Humorous ones. Things that interested me. One was called "She'll be Right". Australian language really tickled me. You see, Australia House led me to believe that Scotland and Australia were pretty much the same, except in Australia there's more sunshine and better wages. You're sort of halfway there, because you want to believe it, of course, but when you get here it's such a different society, it's a real shock. It's nothing like Scotland, I'm pleased to say. Anyway, like most migrants I was cast in the role of observer in a totally new society. So you see a lot of novel ways and funny little things, that possibly the people who live here can't see, because they can't see the wood for the trees I'm like that after twenty years here. Less and less do I see the anomalies in Australian society because more and more I'm part of it. That's just a matter of progression. It's always a moot point. Do you stand outside the mainstream as an observer and write songs as such, or do you join the mainstream and write songs as a participant? I know which one I prefer. Anyway, I set a couple more basic poems to basic tunes, real basic! With great trepidation I sang them at the local folk club. People actually liked them! I thought "Maybe I've got something here. It didn't come as a flash of light, but I was encouraged enough to keep going. It's interesting that the first two songs I ever sang in public were humorous songs that I'd written myself, (apart from the two I'd written in Scotland, which don't count). And to make people laugh is not easy. Especially in a folk club! After the first couple of "funny songs" then I wrote Leaving Nancy and And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Nancy wasn't written for public consumption originally. A lot of my songs are written for my own benefit, my own penance, if you like, an emotional escape. But friends who heard me sing it, begged me to sing it to audiences, because they said there were lots of people out there who could identify with every word. You tend to think of yourself as a unique human being. You think nobody has gone through such pain and trauma as you have, and of course, there's millions out there who've gone through worse than you have. That's one of the great things about music, it gets you a lot of friends you don't know you've got. And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda was the fourth or fifth song I wrote. And I didn't like it, and I still have reservations about it. When I first wrote the song, it was eight verses long. It lasted fifteen minutes! So I sang it a couple of times at the local folk clubs, and people were falling asleep, going to the toilet a lot, and I thought, "well, it's not a bad song, but there's something wrong with it. It should be having more impact than this!" So, I looked at it, and I said, "Well it's too long, that's part of the reason." So I went through it, and said "I've already said this, why am I saying this again?" I'm just ramming home my point as if the audience are so stupid they can't understand the first time round. I was just being too long-winded. People who know my songs now must say, "Oh God!" because I do specialise in writing some pretty long songs, by today's standards. But I can assure you, I'm being as brief as I can be. See, the first lesson I learned about songwriting was: say what you want to say and say it in the least number of verses possible. Never presume that the audience out there are such total dickheads, that you've got to keep hammering away the point. If you do, it's your fault not theirs. So, I pruned it down to five verses. I really wanted to try to get it down to four, which I felt was the right length, but I just couldn't. In the end I said, it's got to be five verses. SongwritingI believe the lyrics are far more important than the melody at my audience level where people tend to listen, because they listen to the words. A good strong lyric can carry a weak melody. The reverse I'm not sure is true. In the pop scene that's true. Lyrics are unimportant, everybody admits that. They need good, strong melodies. In the pop scene what primarily functions in a song is a good catchy melody that people will dance to or clap to - a good hook.In my sort of scene - whatever it is - it's different. People do tend to listen to lyrics, so a good lyric can carry any tune. but the reverse, a good tune and very shitty lyrics, will tend to turn people off. So I spend a lot of time on lyrics. Some lyrics have taken me three months to write for various reasons and I've never spent more than two days on a melody, never. When I write a lyric I tend to write down in prose style everything I can think I want to say on that particular subject - just an essay almost then I try to make it rhyme, I go through and say, "Well, what should I say?" Pick out the bits that I've already said or a bit obtuse or a bit too precious, and say, "Right, I'm left with this: make it rhyme." And I use a rhyming dictionary. I get songs sent to me all the time. A couple of tapes a week, at least, poems by the thousand. But most of the stuff I get sent is not good. I write back to the people, with very few exceptions, because I know what it's like and I try to be supportive and say: "Keep writing; I can't use it" and I'll try to tell them why; and I never say, "I can't use it 'cos it's crap." I'd never say that. But I'll make suggestions. Some of them send me sheets of prose poetry for songs and I write back and say "This is not a song, this is a Poem." Lots of derivative stuff, lots of people with their own wheelbarrows to push and pour out all their feelings and passion in what they're writing about and I appreciate that. Often it's not my style but I answer everybody and I try to be supportive. Some of them have been sending them for years to various musicians and must be losing heart by now, so you say to yourself, "I'll do then a favour and tell them they're no good." And then I think, "Well, no; they get pleasure out of writing the songs". If they choose to send them to people hoping they get recorded they've got to put up with the disappointment. I might get a song one day that I think is great! So I never discourage people from sending their stuff. Extracted from SCALA News Issue 11 (September/October 1989) © Copyright SCALA 1990 Visit the Eric Bogle Website Return To Contents |
John Schumann: Why I Write
John Schumann commenced his songwriting in the politically active years of the 1960s. He teamed with Michael Atkinson and Verity Truman to form the band Redgum which had a series of politically hard edged albums. John was the main songwriter for the group and had a major hit with the brilliant song
I Was Only 19 a sensitive portrait of a Vietnam veteran's psyche. John has pursued a solo career over the past 10 years.
The following extract is derived from a talk John gave at SCALA's Annual General Meeting in 1990.
But there is a "huge obligation" on the singer who does make a living from his/her songs. "This is why",
said John, "I write the songs I do. People like me are supported by society, whether that society is
structured for good or for ill. Therefore there is an obligation on us to contribute seriously and intelligently
to improve the conditions under which we live." Phew - a tall order!
Even the standard love song is "politically active because it takes our minds
off injuries, inequities, oppression and war" in our society and in the larger world. The song writer has "an
obligation" (that word again!) to use his/her creativity to change the world for the better - the "I Love You,
Baby" song "disguises the true state of the world."
John said that he would not record any INXS material (for example) - "it's just not very useful; in fact it's
counterproductive in the final analysis." Yes, INXS and many similar groups are well off. Yes, they are
creative and they do work very hard. But their songs divert attention from the issues we should face!
John was willing to concede that not all songwriters should strive at social commentating, churning out
politically or environmentally aware lyrics. It's just that there is such a huge imbalance - 99% of singers
are content with nothing but the "I Love You, Baby" stuff. John recounted an amusing instance where he
was "recognised" by an air hostess as he boarded an aircraft. "I know you!', she burbled, "you're the guy
who writes about death, war, cancer and all that stuff!"
John has "a strong commitment to Australian lyrics and the Australian accent" in contemporary music. He
confessed that he was astounded at how much his voice sounded American in early home recordings. He
still assails the notion that you "should only sing in an Australian accent if you are singing about cows and
sheep"! Why is it that so many writers think their song will only grab attention if it's about Hollywood
Boulevard rather than, say, North Terrace, Adelaide?! John has consistently reacted against this cultural self
abasement, injecting "Australian placenames, idiom and accent in my songs" - as his many followers will
happily attest. Goanna, Midnight Oil and Paul Kelly are others whose lyrics unashamedly celebrate the
country in which they live. He pointed out that many US performers touring Australia seek out
"homegrown" recordings - Eric Bogle, Judy Small et al - which clearly indicates that we do have something
original and valuable to offer.
© Copyright Geoff Hastwell 1991
Visit the John Schumann Website
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Ninety Words That MatterThe speaker at SCALA's 1992 Annual General Meeting was Don Foster who was, at that time, the Music Program Director at South Australia's (then) top rating commercial FM radio station SAFM. Don spoke about the nature of commercial radio, the difficulties in getting airplay and what was required.
Each commercial radio station attempts to grab an audience share. Radio listener demographics are split
into the age cohorts 10 - 17 years, 18 - 24, 25 - 39 and 40 plus. These cohorts can be subdivided if necessary.
Gender also plays a role. Thus a station might specifically target 25 - 39 year old females and play music
and present programs which, it hopes, will specifically target that age group and gender. This doesn't mean that only people in these gender and age groups will be listening. It will include people who identify with these cohorts.
Age and gender considerations distinguish commercial radio from public access or community radio which,
by its nature, usually caters for a wide range of ages and some specific interest groups. As Don put it, in
commercial radio, to try to appeal to all age groups and genders is to lose all of them!
Don felt that the goal of most songwriters is to get as many people as possible to hear their song. In this
context Don receives in any average week about 60 singles and 40 albums. Closer to Christmas it's more
like 80 singles and 50 albums a week (all the compilations, best of's and Xmas songs). In any week SAFM
has only 3 or 4 spots where it can add new songs to its playlist. Don likened it to about 180 cars competing
for 4 car parking spaces. Yes, there is a great deal of hype in the industry and millions of dollars put into
marketing and promotion by the record companies. Inducements and gifts abound.
Commercial radio is extremely competitive and the Music Director's role is to ensure that the flow of music
holds the audience so that advertisers know that they are getting value for money. Consequently,
commercial radio hits must be selected carefully. A radio hit must have a unique blend of Quality, Mass
Appeal, On-Air Sound and Lyrics-which-touch-people (in about 90 words). The song must be able to
withstand airplay 2 or 3 times a day for up to 20 weeks. It is not so important that the song be a chart hit
single.
So how does an independent, local songwriter get into the commercial airplay league? Don admitted that
there is probably less local music played on SAFM now than a few years ago due to the increased
competition between radio stations which can't afford to "make mistakes" by playing "risky" local music
very often.
To get a local release crossing into the daytime format, Don would have to feel that the song had the
qualities mentioned above. In addition he would have to be sure that it could get reasonable distribution so
that listeners could buy the recording. He felt that this was not such a problem in South Australia as in other
states. The feedback he receives from phone calls is important in determining the general type of music
which SAFM plays or doesn't play.
© Copyright Robert Childs 1992
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Turning Lyrics into a Song An interview with Lyricist Andrew Cooper, who has had a song Shiny Side In in the top ten of the Lyrics section in the Australian Song Writers Competition, an Olympic song All Races will be one (co-written with Mark Drilling) sung by 5000 children and a youth choir in the Festival of Schools Choirs over 12 nights and sold a couple of songs including The State we're In (co-written with Martin Laud).
Before starting Riffind Music and his Foot In The Door CD series, Andrew Cooper co-wrote Perspective with Rob Thompson. It appears on the SCALA Tell The World CD (1995) sung by Tony Minniecon & Amanda Thompson from the band Big Brother.
How does a Lyricist have their words put to Music?
Firstly, take the "How" and turn it into "How ya doin'." Getting out there amongst people who compose music or play in bands is a good start. Lyricists are usually extremely creative, so how you do this is not hugely restricted. Networking dinners, live venues, Music Managers Forums, workshops, local music association meetings and other music industry events are all helpful.
So how have you recorded around 30 songs without being able to play a musical instrument?
You could conclude that I can't sing for crackers within that question. I've found that it generally works out if the musicians like my words, I like their music, and we get along well. Sure, in the beginning, it was mainly up to me to initiate contact, and broach the subject of song writing. I started out by writing 17 lots of lyrics, and finding bands and artists who wanted to do my material while linking the themes in the words with styles of music. This was greatly boosted by Rob Thompson who wrote the music to quite a few in a deal that worked out well for both of us. With the help of 10 bands/artists found through mixing within the above examples, adverts in street press and posters in music shops, the birth of the first Foot in the Door compilation CD was born. FITD has expanded to a national commodity to assist bands all around Australia, not just songs that I write.
How do you compare only writing lyrics, to writing lyrics and music. Surely you must be at a disadvantage?
No. I find that I have heaps of flexibility, and working with others and bouncing ideas back and forth is greatly beneficial. One time a band rang back and didn't like my stuff. It worked out that they just wanted something that they could put a harder edge musically to. I had something that suited, and with a few minor changes, we went into the studio and had a great time.
Would you add anything else which could help lyricists.
Yeah. It comes down to working out where you want to be and what is needed to get to there. If you just want to get your lyrics down and share them amongst family and friends, that's pretty easy. If you want to get them into a format which may lead to greater things, start getting out there and put in some hard yards. Things don't always get offered to you on a plate, so enjoy the outcomes from the work you put in.
© Copyright Andrew Cooper 2001
Extracted from SCALA News # 80 (March/April 2001)
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